Gringoes.com: Problematic alimony in gringo relationships

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   I have learned a whole lot about the economical implication of marital relationships, in the past 2 years. And on related threads we have worked some things out, on this one I like to work out the question of alimony and what to do about it. In my view alimony poses a particularly problematic issue in relationships involving gringos and brasileiras especially if she is of lower means even in Brazil.

Just in case you do not know, marital relationship in Brazil means marriage as well as união estavel. The latter comes about by living together or making a life together, in unknown ways. Typically you would only know that there was a união estavel when she sues you for dissolution of união estavel asking for certain property and alimony. I think any man ignores that risk at his own peril.

Let me make clear that I am excluding child support from the present discussion. If you or I have a common child with our brasileira, then the child has certain rights and we have a duty for the child ... there are issues, possibly discussed in yet another thread.

Here it is about alimony.

I have begun investigating this issue in depth here: Alimony Law in the Brasilian Civil Code, and I won't just copy and paste the full text again. Suffice it to say that Brazilian new civil code (novo Codigo Civil) of 2002 contains one article which is the key and cornerstone of the problem:

Art. 1.694. Podem os parentes, os cônjuges ou companheiros pedir uns aos outros os alimentos de que necessitem para viver de modo compatível com a sua condição social, inclusive para atender às necessidades de sua educação.

So, the problem is what exactly is it that the alimony right guarantees? And what is the "condição social"?

Under one theory, expressed in a higher court ruling spoke of "... para que ele [a alimentada] recuperasse a condição econômica que detinha durante o relacionamento.", i.e., under this theory the ex would have a right to maintain her standard of living that she had with you during your relationship. Now Gringodude jumped right in with his theory that therefore you marry someone with money and job, but really this only gives you a relative protection. Because if she makes a case that whatever she had with you is now her standard of living that she has a right to maintain, if you have any decent income in a developed country outside of Brazil, you are under this theory on the hook for potentially life-long duty to supplement her income.

Edited by Squiddie - 24 May 2012 at 11:51

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Squiddie Senior Member Joined: 27 June 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1503	Topic: Problematic alimony in gringo relationships Posted: 24 May 2012 at 11:33
	I have learned a whole lot about the economical implication of marital relationships, in the past 2 years. And on related threads we have worked some things out, on this one I like to work out the question of alimony and what to do about it. In my view alimony poses a particularly problematic issue in relationships involving gringos and brasileiras especially if she is of lower means even in Brazil. Just in case you do not know, marital relationship in Brazil means marriage as well as união estavel. The latter comes about by living together or making a life together, in unknown ways. Typically you would only know that there was a união estavel when she sues you for dissolution of união estavel asking for certain property and alimony. I think any man ignores that risk at his own peril. Let me make clear that I am excluding child support from the present discussion. If you or I have a common child with our brasileira, then the child has certain rights and we have a duty for the child ... there are issues, possibly discussed in yet another thread. Here it is about alimony. I have begun investigating this issue in depth here: Alimony Law in the Brasilian Civil Code, and I won't just copy and paste the full text again. Suffice it to say that Brazilian new civil code (novo Codigo Civil) of 2002 contains one article which is the key and cornerstone of the problem: Art. 1.694. Podem os parentes, os cônjuges ou companheiros pedir uns aos outros os alimentos de que necessitem para viver de modo compatível com a sua condição social, inclusive para atender às necessidades de sua educação. So, the problem is what exactly is it that the alimony right guarantees? And what is the "condição social"? Under one theory, expressed in a higher court ruling spoke of "... para que ele [a alimentada] recuperasse a condição econômica que detinha durante o relacionamento.", i.e., under this theory the ex would have a right to maintain her standard of living that she had with you during your relationship. Now Gringodude jumped right in with his theory that therefore you marry someone with money and job, but really this only gives you a relative protection. Because if she makes a case that whatever she had with you is now her standard of living that she has a right to maintain, if you have any decent income in a developed country outside of Brazil, you are under this theory on the hook for potentially life-long duty to supplement her income. Edited by Squiddie - 24 May 2012 at 11:51

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Gringodude Senior Member Joined: 06 January 2009 Location: Cape Verde Online Status: Offline Posts: 1971	Posted: 24 May 2012 at 11:38
	That's why you marry a female with her own money and job. And, not be a loser failing yourself by marrying a lower class blonde...
	Keeping the BrazilianLifestyle "Have a great day everyone" - Ray "You know who you are, now go and reflect!" - Esprit
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Squiddie Senior Member Joined: 27 June 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1503	Posted: 24 May 2012 at 11:40
	Yes Gringodude, and still you can end up in crap. Just hang in there. I'm not finished.
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Gringodude Senior Member Joined: 06 January 2009 Location: Cape Verde Online Status: Offline Posts: 1971	Posted: 24 May 2012 at 11:45
	As long as she is working and making more than you are and your property or financial means is somewhat a mystery you should be fine. You should sue her for alimony if you want to project any form of defence.
	Keeping the BrazilianLifestyle "Have a great day everyone" - Ray "You know who you are, now go and reflect!" - Esprit
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Squiddie Senior Member Joined: 27 June 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1503	Posted: 24 May 2012 at 11:56
	Gringodude, I know you love simplification and poking your nose at people. Are you saying you are a loser by yourself and you are the one who hitches a ride through life on your brazilian wife? So may be this is not an issue for Gringodude, but instead Gringodude's wife should worry about it. However, it is an issue for me, and it does not so much depend on the status of the girl, it depends on my achievements. I have the exact same issue with any girl I would marry in the U.S. or in Europe. However, the laws in U.S. and Europe are so that the doctrine of maintained standard of living has been revised or can be moderated by pre-nup. This is what I am dealing with here. And besides, Gringodude, I am not the only one who goes for a nice girl who just happens not to make my income. This is not at all unusual. I would bet that at least half of the people here fall in this category. Edited by Squiddie - 24 May 2012 at 11:57
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Gringodude Senior Member Joined: 06 January 2009 Location: Cape Verde Online Status: Offline Posts: 1971	Posted: 24 May 2012 at 12:04
	No, I do not 'hitch a ride' anywhere, I just have my sensible involvement with my marriage. I would raise the bet to almost 99% of people on here or in Brazil who are married do so because of infatuation and not love. Every other week there is a chump who claims to have found the love of their life 'online'. I'm not against it in any form it just progresses its way into failure and another settlement. Also, it's not of a problematic nature to possess your own achievements. It is however to openly share them when in fact you are blinded by emotion that locks up your logic. I just have no sympathy for this recurring type of situation, people need to learn, might you agree?
	Keeping the BrazilianLifestyle "Have a great day everyone" - Ray "You know who you are, now go and reflect!" - Esprit
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sven Gringoes.com Guru Joined: 14 March 2007 Location: Brazil Online Status: Offline Posts: 12790	Posted: 24 May 2012 at 12:09
	As in everything in Brazilian law, two principles apply, the principle of human dignity and the principle of reasonability. It's totally reasonable if a socker player, married at 17, starts making big bucks at 18, and divorces at 23, having a wife with no education and a kid at the swiss school, forks over 100K for the kids "to maintain the same standard of living" without the ex actually having to work. On the other hand, someone making 1K per month cannot be expected to maintain the child at the same social level, if there is any social level to speak of. The wife will have to work and the provider will have to at least guarantee the bare minimum (human dignity). Now an example of no children. A couple has been married for 30 years, hubby makes big bucks (30K) and decides to swap the old fusca for a newer model Ferrari. The wife is a typical upper class, 50 year old housewife, that can't even boil water without the empregada. In this case it's totaly reasonable that the guy forks over 10K to maintain her standard of living at a similar level. If both work, it's not very comon the ex wife will recieve alimony, even if she makes quite a bit less. There is no fixed rule. Each judge applies his "juizo de valores" on each case.
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hpeak13 Gringoes.com Guru Joined: 14 July 2009 Location: Brazil Online Status: Offline Posts: 2130	Posted: 24 May 2012 at 12:15
	just an aside, but what the hell does this mean.... "I just have my sensible involvement with my marriage."
	We all have to decide for ourselves how much sin we can live with. -Enoch Nucky Thompson
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Squiddie Senior Member Joined: 27 June 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1503	Posted: 24 May 2012 at 14:05
	People need to learn, and that is exactly what this is about. The men's rights groups are full with horror stories. There is some arguments about what is reasonable, but it seems to me that the laws everywhere are changing to put more responsibility for every person to (a) make their own income and (b) move in the social status ladder to live a lifestyle they can afford out of their own means. This is such a big issue, with all sides of the argument. I suppose my point for this particular thread is somewhat limited as to (a) assess the what is common, assess the risk of being on the hook for how much for how long (and thanks Sven for having answered a great deal about it.) and then more specifically (b) come up with workable avenues to put up some pre-nuptial protection which has a reasonable chance of being considered because it is not unconscionable and has a basis of fairness. In my view, pre-nups are hugely important for any couple at any age to set a status of what they believe is fair. Such a declaration may not hold back a fiercely litigious spouse from asking for whatever, but it provides some basis that a judge will consider. And the more reasonable and reasoned it is, the higher is its chance to be taken seriously in the mind of the judge. Edited by Squiddie - 24 May 2012 at 14:17
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Squiddie Senior Member Joined: 27 June 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1503	Posted: 24 May 2012 at 15:08
	So, here in a nutshell the problem: Gringo with a certain intrinsic standard of living (i.e., a standard that he has created and can maintain for himself and those who are with him) enters marital relationship with a woman who has a much lower intrinsic standard of living. Examples can be: US surgeon and US nurse or secretary, or US engineer and Brazilian teacher, or of course US business man and Brazilian receptionist. And here at gringoes.com, we will focus on Brasileira, whether receptionist, teacher, or scientist, or just daughter of a father. Rarely it will be the rich daughter of a rich father richer than the Gringo. It may however be the rich daughter of the rich father by Brazilian standards. The latter would make me very worried actually. Because there are those who are happy to have a small place in low-middle class suburbs, and there are others who demand a minimum shopping allowance that they need to be happy. The worst case, perfectly compatible with the Brazilian Civil Code, would be: a marital relation would boost the woman to the man's standard of living and henceforth he would be responsible to maintain her new standard of living regardless of her being in any other way associated with him. This means you would become responsible to maintain any woman you touch with anything but a one-night-stand, and you would be responsible for the rest of her life, and your children would be responsible for her should you die before [Art 1.700]. Example: your intrinsic value is US$ 100,000 gross annual income, hers is R$ 24,000. After being associated with you for 1 year, she automatically assumes the right for US$ 100,000 - R$ 24,000 in annual support, which is US$ 88,000 per year or US$ 7,333 per month, or, even if you give only half of that it would be US$ 3,666 per month. Now try your luck with a second and third girlfriend ... If the regime de bens is an issue for some, this alimony issue is far worse. Especially if the alimony comes on top of having to chip out half of your value for which you worked your ass off (and which you saved by making her upset saying "no" to her requests for purchasing or spending otherwise money in convenience items.) Surely I am painting a dark and alarmist picture. But I believe that this picture is the grotesque result of the Civil Code when interpreted without additional limits. And so my question is: what are such additional limits? With child support, one can argue that the code says that both parents are responsible to do their share [Art 1.703]. And child support should be limited in some way by the child being grown up. However, the Civil Code, talking about alimentos mixing both spousal support and child support, does not even set a temporal limit on child support. I think, this means, that a lazy bum can demand support for life. And by extension, this means that if my Brazilian ex raises my child from whom she alienates me as a lazy bum, then I and after me my other children would remain responsible for support. I know it is ridiculous, I am just connecting the dots. I am interested in knowing the limits and what constitutes such limits other than claims to "common sense" or reference to the word "reasonable" or "just" "fair" "equitable" or whatever other blurry words might be used in these arguments. Edited by Squiddie - 24 May 2012 at 15:20
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